Creating an Extraordinary Customer Experience with Nicole Smith

You don’t have to identify as a founder or an entrepreneur to kick-start the marketplace business you’ve been dreaming of. If you’re like Nicole Smith, the founder and CEO of Flytographer, you can create the solution to a problem and see where it takes you. In Nicole’s case, her marketplace has taken her around the world. 

Flytograher is a services marketplace that connects travelers around the globe with highly vetted local photographers. 

Conceptually, Flytographer is straightforward and solves a common problem when traveling— capturing memories with great photos. However, like many marketplaces, success doesn’t hinge on the concept itself, but on the execution and resulting customer experience. And the customer experience Nicole has developed makes Flytographer extraordinary. 

Why and how Nicole started Flytographer

Nicole didn’t set out to start a marketplace or a business; she set out on vacation. While taking in beautiful Parisian architecture, Nicole wished for a photo souvenir that wasn’t a selfie or the half effort of a passerby. This wish planted the seed for a business like Flytographer. But Nicole didn’t act right away. She let the idea germinate for nine months before letting it flower. 

“I had a good job at Microsoft. I had no intention of becoming an entrepreneur. I was not a photographer. […]I wasn't an accelerator researching marketplace strategies. I was literally a person with a problem I wanted to solve. And I'm like, what's the next thing I can do? And what's the next thing I can do?” 

Nicole described the creation of Flytographer as throwing spaghetti against a wall. Whether she knew it or not, her approach actually followed tried, tested, and true marketplace launch methodology: crawl, walk, run. She took the following steps to launch. 

She created her minimum viable marketplace (MVP) 

Nicole approached friends going on vacation and asked them to beta-test the concept for her business. She didn’t create any technology, but she put enough pieces together to 1. mimic the experience of the app she wanted to create and 2. answer the quintessential question: Can this marketplace be monetized — and is it worth it?

“One of my friends was going to Paris, and I said, ‘Hey, I have this idea. Would you be game to have a photographer come, follow you around for an hour, take some great photos, and give me feedback on the process?’” 

She onboarded a select group of sellers

To find her first vendors for the marketplace, Nicole didn’t do anything fancy. 

“I literally went on Craigslist, vetted a few people, hired one of them, wired him money. […] It was literally that basic in the beginning.” 

The learning she gathered during the initial hiring process would inform Flytographer’s onboarding strategy and position as a highly curated marketplace in the future. 

She received customer validation

The mini-proof of concepts Nicole gathered helped her determine the steps needed to mover her minimum viable product to the launch stage. 

“Through the fall of 2012, I got a lot of customer validation and photographer validation and started to really understand the core product offering I'm going to put out there. How many photographers do I need to make it ready for launch?”

And then she launched 

In March 2013, Flytographer went to market with photographers from 18 cities across the globe. The most impressive part? Nicole did all this while fully employed by Microsoft and raising two young kids. 

How Flytographer creates an audience-centric experience through curation

For Nicole, creating an extraordinary customer experience comes down to Flytographer’s sellers: the local photographers. 

A critical component of Flytographer’s value proposition is that her vendors create an experience for the travelers they photograph. In fact, an experiential offering she created has allowed Flytographer to thrive, even as the travel photographer market gets crowded.

“Imagine you're going on a trip to Rome with your family; you could go to our marketplace, browse the photographers in Rome, browse our portfolios, and book them directly. Then you'll meet them on the day of the shoot in Rome. They're not only going to take beautiful photos of you and your family with those iconic backdrops, but you're going to walk the streets.”

Customer experience trumps scale

Intrinsic to Flytographer’s value to buyers is that they experience a local destination with a local photographer who can share knowledge while creating and capturing an unforgettable experience. Knowing this, Nicole decided to curate her marketplace rather than let it scale endlessly.

On Flytographer, each photographer is vetted based on professionalism, their portfolio, and, most importantly, their personality.  

“We probably hire about 3% of applicants to the platform. We’re really, really particular about brand experience and customer experience. We make sure that it's a good fit. That's how we've generated 30,000 five-star reviews and have an NPS of 90 for so long because we are laser-focused on a great customer experience across their whole journey.”

Vendor check-ins are ongoing

Beyond the initial onboarding process, Nicole uses various checks and balances, including review loops, customer feedback, and coaching, to ensure photographers remain a good match.

“We have global meetups, we have regular check-ins. We have data that we collect and look at across multiple touchpoints to really understand what's working for these photographers and how we set them up for success.”

The importance of balancing supply and demand

For Flytographer to work, Nicole must ensure there’s enough work for photographers to stay on the platform and enough choice for buyers to book when they want to. 

While highly curated marketplaces allow operators to maintain control of the experience, they can create challenges for balancing supply and demand. Nicole strikes a balance between growth objectives and customer experience through the following tactics:

Tracking lost leads

Nicole’s team does a weekly check-in on lost leads. Lost leads are a KPI that indicates the number of customers with money in hand who are ready to book but can’t because no photographer is available. By monitoring this metric, Nicole knows when to increase or hold steady on supply in a destination. 

Setting expectations

Nicole prioritizes transparency with her suppliers and emphasizes setting clear expectations. 

“I think being clear is kind and saying, ‘Hey, you know, we're hiring you in December. You're probably going to start seeing more bookings in February.’”

Making it a no-brainer to join

There’s no cost or fee for photographers to join Flytographer. Instead, Nicole focuses on giving her photographers resources to set them up for success, including tips and tricks to increase their chances of getting booked.

Advice for other marketplace operators: Focus on your users

From day one of Flytographer, Nicole has focused on making her company's photography experience a highlight for her travelers and ensuring her photographers are cared for. For marketplace operators looking to create an experience via their marketplace, she has the following advice:  

Be clear about your customer experience every step of the way

Nicole believes the customer experience doesn’t start and end during the photography service itself. It begins from the first time they visit your website.
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“From the first time they hit your website through your transactional emails, through the in-person experience, to getting their photos — really invest in every touch point. Reduce friction and make it easy.”

Inject personalization and delight wherever you can 

Making your marketplace a delight to experience will kick off your flywheel and help you grow in the long run, even if it means sacrificing scale upfront. 

“Not only will [buyers] come back again, they're also going to refer their friends. Right now, about 40 percent of our monthly bookings are between repeat customers and people who tell their friends or refer a friend. So, the cost of acquisition is like zero.”

Treat sellers like a customer 

While the tendency is to focus on the side of the marketplace that pays, don’t forget that your marketplace depends on supply to generate revenue.

“We want [our photographers] to know that we care about them, and they have the tools that they need. […] This is such a people business; making sure that our people feel incredibly valued by Flytographer makes them show up and give the best experience possible to our customers. It's like this flywheel all around that helps us drive growth —  and also feels really good from a founder's perspective.”

Transcript

[00:00:00] Nicole: I mean, I've learned a million things in the last decade. Number one is being really, really clear on what that customer experience is from like the first time they hit your website through your transactional emails, through the in person experience to getting their photos and really. Investing in every touch point.

[00:00:21] And secondly, just injecting personalization and delight wherever you can. So the more you can do that, then that becomes your flywheel because people not only will [00:00:30] come back again, they're also going to refer their friends. And right now that's about 40 percent of our bookings every month.

[00:00:37] Niklas: Welcome to Operation Marketplace, a series where we talk to the people behind marketplaces, we dive into their mission, how they found success and talk about the hurdles that they faced along the way.

[00:00:48] I'm your host. Niklas Halusa, co-founder and CEO of Nautical Commerce.

[00:00:59] Today I have the [00:01:00] pleasure of welcoming Nicole Smith, founder and CEO of flytographer photographer, a marketplace for being able to find, uh, photographers all over the world to go and, and, and, uh, take pictures of you and, and, and, and your loved ones or whatever you're doing. Um, uh, wherever you're on vacation, wherever you're going, when you need to have, have a, a photographer on hand and.

[00:01:22] And build your portfolio of pictures. Um, however, I'll let, uh, uh, Nicole tell a little bit more of her story. Um, [00:01:30] welcome to call. We'd love to hear a little bit more about Flytographer.

[00:01:33] Nicole: Thank you, Niklas. It's great to be here. Um, yeah, I'd love to share our story. So our story, um, begins. Just over a decade ago, um, photographer, the concept is essentially a marketplace for local photographers, primarily in the vacation photography verticals.

[00:01:50] So imagine you're going on a trip to Rome with your family. You could go to our marketplace, browse the photographers in Rome browser portfolios, book them directly. [00:02:00] Then you're going to meet them the day of the shoot in Rome. They're not only going to take beautiful pictures. photos of you and your family with those iconic backdrops, but you're going to walk the streets and let's say it's Roberta in Rome.

[00:02:12] Roberta is going to share her favorite tips about the city and like where the best coffee shops are, if you have any questions about, um, kind of things to do. So you're walking around capturing unbelievably gorgeous photos with the people you love in this beautiful place and you're rubbing elbows with the local and getting some awesome tips, um, [00:02:30] to bring back home. So that's the concept in a nutshell.

[00:02:33] Niklas: And how did you. land on building this? And my understanding of your background is that you don't actually come out of the photography world. So, so, so how did this happen?

[00:02:45] Nicole: That is not a rumor. That is fact. I came from the marketing world and I actually was at Microsoft for about 13 years and a tech startup before that. So, um, zero experience in photography and that, and that, uh, perspective. But, uh, I was on a trip to Paris with my best friend. Um, we just wanted to get one good photo together and we found it really hard. So, you know, when you're on a great trip and you're walking around, what, what most people do is they grab their phone and they hold it up and they take a selfie and it's just kind of mostly your heads and a little bit of the backdrop.

[00:03:20] Um, or you give your phone to a stranger and ask them to take a shot. And often it's kind of like, you know, your head's cut off or you have four chins. It's not something you're going to [00:03:30] want to put on your walls when you get back home. Yeah. So we were running into that problem. Um, and I just really wanted one good photo that could represent not just like us, but the beautiful Parisian architecture.

[00:03:41] And so what we did was we had a local friend of hers who had met us for brunch that day, and I gave her my iPhone and I just said, um, Hey, Anita, do you mind taking some photos of Eric and I, but from a distance, and this is the key part, it's like, You know, a more of a wide angle. So we're kind of small, but all that gorgeous architectures around us.

[00:03:59] And, um, [00:04:00] it actually takes you right back to that moment with your friend, um, in that city. And so she took these candid shots with my iPhone from a distance. Um, when I looked at my phone after I thought, wow, that is the best souvenir I'm going to bring back home from this trip. And, um, how that, how the heck would I do this on a future trip?

[00:04:17] Because like, this is the only souvenir I want to bring, but I don't want to bring back stuff. I just want to bring back memories that will allow me to revisit this moment in time. So that's where the idea came from. Um, that was actually back in 2011, thought about the [00:04:30] idea for nine months. I had a good job at Microsoft.

[00:04:33] I had no intention of becoming an entrepreneur. I was not a photographer. None of it made sense, but I couldn't stop thinking about this problem. I would literally wake up with ideas in the middle of the night and go, Oh, I could do this, or I could call it this. And so after nine months of kind of thinking about this idea, I thought, okay, I'm going to start taking some steps towards just throwing the spaghetti against the wall and see if there's anything to this idea.

[00:04:55] And so, uh, that was the early days and that's where the idea came from.

[00:04:59] Niklas: And. And how did you sort of get the whole ball rolling? I mean, you need to go, you have this idea, you need to, you know, first of all, go and go and build a place where you can advertise photographers, but you have to go find a bunch of these photographers, the ones who aren't going to put their finger in front of the camera or cut your head off and everything else.

[00:05:25] So, you know, how do you go from not being in this industry?

Nicole: Yeah

Niklas: working, um, uh, at a comfortable job to figuring out how to build a global network of, of, of freelance photographers.

[00:05:39] Nicole: Yeah, I get asked this question a lot and I always, I think the biggest thing is like, I did not know what I was doing at the time.

[00:05:45] I didn't have, I was in an accelerator researching marketplace strategies. I was literally a person with a problem I wanted to solve. And I'm like, what, what's that next thing I can do? And what's that next thing I can do? And so, um, I was, um, I was a bit of an older founder. So I was turning almost 40 when this idea happened, it was 39.

[00:06:02] And I said to myself, if I don't take an action before I turn 40, then just stop thinking about this. Cause it'd been like nine months of thinking about this. And so that was sort of what got me off the like idea train and into the action train. And, um, the first thing I did was start, um, Looking at photographers that were on places like Craigslist and like freelance sites, I looked at friends that were going away, um, on vacation and one [00:06:30] of my friends was going to Paris and I said, Hey, I have this idea.

[00:06:33] It's kind of like, you know, different, but would you be game to have a photographer come follow you around for like an hour, take some great photos and give me feedback on the process? And so she was like, sure. And then I went, I literally went on Craigslist. people hired one of them, wired him the money or whatever it was.

[00:06:51] They paid him the money. I think it was. Um, I, I remember at the time being like, what am I doing? Like this guy will probably never show up, probably never get my money back. [00:07:00] Um, but a lot of it was just following instinct and. trying things. And so that first shoot did happen. Um, we learned a lot, like for example, the photographer just followed them from behind the whole time and hardly got any shots of their faces.

[00:07:14] So I'm like, okay, I need to give more instructions. And so it was literally that basic in the beginning of me trying things, having friends, traveling, finding photographers and did a whole bunch of little, Mini proof of concepts, if you will, to kind of figure out what this minimum viable product would be [00:07:30] to get us to a launch stage.

[00:07:31] And so I did that through the fall of 2012, got a lot of customer validation, photographer validation, started to really understand, okay, what, what's the core product offering that I'm going to put out there? How many photographers do I need to make it just kind of be ready for launch and then start getting a website built, bought the.

[00:07:49] You know, came up with the name, bought the URL, started building that. And we, I launched the site in March of 2013, kind of off the side of my desk while I was working full time. And also, um, yeah, I have two kids. So it was a, it was a busy chapter for sure.

[00:08:04] Niklas: What did you focus on initially? You know, how did you, did you focus on countries?

Did you focus on types of trips? Um, uh, did you have a, did you have sort of a narrow focus or did you just say, you know what, let's just make this available and see what happens?

[00:08:20] Nicole: I looked at so we launched with 18 cities and I looked at where are the places that I would want to travel and have a photographer. So what are those photo graph? Beautiful photogenic [00:08:30] places. So the Paris, the London, the New York, um, Hawaii, uh, London

[00:08:36] Niklas: season. I presume your London season. I assume is very short. It's two weeks.

[00:08:44] Nicole: That's funny. Yeah. So anyways, yeah, we just kind of like, I looked at the, where, where do people want photos? What are the places? Um, and I, yeah. Yeah. Interviewed over, um, yeah, a period of time, a number of photographers. Um, I, yeah, it's funny when I look back, like a lot of it was just, I went to Europe and met a bunch of them there and learned some things from, from photographers in person and then the rest of it, I just did remotely.

[00:09:09] Um, and when I launched the site, we had 18 destinations that people could book a photographer in. I know a lot of marketplaces do the opposite. They start in one place and then they kind of do that sort of like city playbook strategy and roll out. city by city, but for our, um, business, it didn't really make sense because people are going to travel anywhere all the time.

[00:09:28] So, um, starting with a broader net, um, seemed to be a better play for us. 

[00:09:32] Niklas: And now that you've been doing this for 11 years, now, what, what's the profile of your customer? Is it what you expected when you first started the business around sort of impromptu. Vacation photos or have you learned something in the meantime?

[00:09:54] Nicole: Yeah, I mean, it's definitely changed and evolved in 11 years. So in the beginning, um, I would say very few men booked Flytographer. It was mostly women. Um, our core audience, I would say is sort of the 25 to 55 moms, people that are, um, with young families or older family, you know, teenagers, et cetera.

[00:10:14] Yeah. People that, um, like for moms especially, it's hard to get in the memories. Oftentimes moms are the ones. Taking the photos and, you know, the documentarian of the family. And then if you look back, they're missing from the memories. And so moms are a big audience of ours because this allows them to get [00:10:30] in the photo and to, you know, to look great in the photo and be part of those memories as well.

[00:10:34] So that's a huge audience for us. Um, another, uh, niche that, um, we talked about this at the top of the call is proposals. And so about 15 percent of our global bookings are men proposing. to women. And we have a few women proposing and like, um, LGBT, you know, same gender proposing, but most of them are like men proposing to women.

[00:10:56] And that's all over the world. Um, about 15 percent of our [00:11:00] business.

[00:11:01] Niklas: And do you, how many of your customers end up, first of all, reusing Flytography? Flytographer again? And how many are, are, you know, use this, for example, when they go back home and things like this, is it sort of mostly one off?

[00:11:17] Or do you find that people come back and they say, you know what? I have such good memories of my trip to Florence. You know, I want to use this again.

[00:11:24] Nicole: Yeah, we, we, we find a majority of the customers, um, book it again on their next trip, wherever they go. [00:11:30] So it's rarely the same location, but some families go back to Hawaii every year and they book the same photographer or a different photographer.

[00:11:37] The majority of the people are going to a new destination and some people are traveling, you know, two, three times a year and doing it. Like that frequently. So there's a bit of a wide berth in terms of, um, uses, but, um, there's certainly some people that, that book and don't come back, but majority, I would say do book within a two year period again.

[00:11:57] Niklas: And what have you learned on the flip side about [00:12:00] your, uh, your, uh, your photographers? I mean, what's the, what's the thinking behind them wanting to be part of, of flytographer, uh, you know, what's the profile of a photographer was typically on your platform.

[00:12:16] Nicole: Yeah, it's, it's, it's changed a lot as well.

[00:12:19] So in the early days, when it was just me trying to recruit photographers to a non existent website, it was really hard because you're not only trying to sell the concept, we were the first to market in this [00:12:30] space. So it didn't exist before Flytographer, there was no global vacation photography marketplaces.

[00:12:34] Um, and so trying to explain to be, you not only have the challenge of explaining who your brand is and why you, they should care about your brand, but also why. The whole marketplace in and of itself. So it was a little more Sisyphean in the early years, but now it's, um, a lot easier, uh, because we have brand awareness and, and there, you know, there's more awareness of just the vacation photography concept in general.

[00:12:56] Um, typically it will depend on the city, but [00:13:00] most of our photographers, um, do it because They love meeting travelers. So a lot of them, you know, our wedding photographers or event photographers, and then Flytographer is a side hustle away for them to make extra cash. Turnkey would basically serve it up on a plate on those days that they're not busy.

[00:13:18] So a Tuesday morning in Venice or a Thursday night in, um, Budapest, like it's, it's a way for them to get extra money doing something that they love, which is taking. Photos and not having to [00:13:30] deal with all the paperwork and all the lead gen, they just get to do what they love. And, um, and that's take the photos, but they also get to meet really interesting people from around the world.

[00:13:38] And so we've actually heard so many stories of friendships popping up between people that, um, meet our flytographers and then, you know, the chemistry just, you know, kicks. We had this one photographer in Florence who was photographing this honeymoon, this couple that were honeymooning from the States.

[00:13:53] And they were asking him about good trails because they were cyclists in the, in the, in Tuscan, Tuscany Hills. And so, [00:14:00] um, Alberto said, well, I'm actually a cyclist as well. Like I could show you my favorite routes tomorrow. And so then off they went and under the Tuscan sun cycling the next day. So those kinds of things happen as well.

[00:14:10] And I think that's kind of, for me, the magic of travel, those, those moments that happen where people just connect and see the eyes through the locals. And, um, yeah, it's just, that's one of my favorite parts, but just to answer your question, I would say for the most part, it's, How do they get extra, um, extra income doing something they love super easy, super [00:14:30] turnkey and have a lot of flexibility around whether they want to take it or not take it and manage their calendars that way.

[00:14:36] Niklas: And so what I find interesting is, is in what you just said is, is this aspect of both freelance and people bringing their Their personal lives to, to some of these events. Um, as it reminds me a little bit of kind of early Airbnb, where it was, you know, you let people into your home and you also, you know, you build a relationship [00:15:00] and you, you know, you become a bit of a local guy to this city and you can get to know somebody and things like this, um, obviously that platform has now changed to become professional heavily, right?

[00:15:13] There's still people who do it, you know, as a, As a hobby and just like having guests in their home, but many, many are professional.

[00:15:22] Nicole: Yeah.

[00:15:22] Niklas: Do you see that happening on Flytographer? Do you, you know, are you at a place where there's some people who do this? [00:15:30] This is what they do. It's their job to be a photographer for your platform.

[00:15:34] Or do you see a trending that direction?

[00:15:37] Nicole: I mean, there's certainly some people that a great majority of their work is, um, photographer shoots, but they all have their own side hustles, extra shoots that they do. On the side. So I would say, um, you know, it's probably not going to be a same use cases. Airbnb where it becomes super professionalized.

[00:15:55] I think photographers love diversity and shooting different [00:16:00] kinds of scenarios. And so I think that's one of the things that really attracted a lot of them to. Join Flytographers that they don't want to just have wedding photos in their portfolio. They want to be able to have some variety and some diversity.

[00:16:11] And so I think by keeping, you know, keeping those pockets open for different, um, you know, channels for leads and parts of their business gives them just more, um, strength and diversity in their portfolio and, and just in their business in general. So,

[00:16:27] Niklas: and what doesn't somebody need to be, [00:16:30] um, successful to go and become a, Transcribed A photographer on your platform.

[00:16:35] I just reminded a little bit of your earlier comment around, you know, shooting the backs of people's heads. Yeah, having a portfolio and things like this, you know, what, what does it look like to actually go and Get on there and be successful and things like this.

[00:16:49] Nicole: Yeah, so we're like a highly vetted marketplace and so to be, um, a member of our community, there's a pretty thorough recruitment process.

[00:16:59] And [00:17:00] so we have a team that manages that at Flytographer now, um, And, you know, there's kind of three big things we look for professional experience. So they need to have at least two years of professional experience with a portfolio that is reflective of the type of shoots that flytographer does. So they need to be professional.

[00:17:16] Um, they need to be reliable and someone that's going to show up and be timely and, um, you know, all those pieces too. But the third thing is really about personality. They need to be someone who. You're going to want to spend one precious hour of [00:17:30] your vacation time with, and they're going to make you feel great and comfortable and safe from the very moment you start shooting with them.

[00:17:36] So that personality piece is absolutely key. We probably hire about 3 percent of applicants to the platform. We're really, really particular about brand experience and customer experience. And so we make sure that it's a good fit. And for us, that's, um, you know, that's how we've been able to generate 30, 000 five star [00:18:00] reviews and have an NPS of 90 for so long, because we are just absolutely laser focused on.

[00:18:06] a great customer experience across their whole journey. And in the photographer piece of that, that's just so important. So, um, you know, we want to make sure it's a good fit and before we put anybody out there and we want our customers to like, um, photography is really based on trust. It's a business based on trust.

[00:18:22] Like you want to be able to know that, Um, when you meet this photographer, they're going to be able to make you feel relaxed and safe. They're going [00:18:30] to, you know, deliver incredible photos and they're going to show up on time. And so trust is critical.

[00:18:37] Niklas: Now that's an interesting thing that you, that you, that you say about, about, you know, only 3 percent of photographers actually making it on the platform and you vetting so intensely.

[00:18:48] Nicole: Yeah.

[00:18:48] Niklas: There's, it feels to me that there's an explicit decision in that to prioritize. Quality over growth, specifically, [00:19:00] um, and, and you've been doing this now for a long time. So, you know, what is it, what does it take for you to, um, go and manage that whole vetting process and get it right? And, and, and, you know, how do you sort of justify the expense of, you know, Of that, both to yourself and, and, uh, and, you know, if there are, if there are outside, outside [00:19:30] folks who are invested in it, you know, how do you justify it to themselves versus just, you know, growth for the sake of growth?

[00:19:37] Nicole: Such a good question. And I'm glad that you asked it. We could have 10, 000 photographers on our site. I mean, obviously for a lot of marketplaces, liquidity is a big thing and you want to make sure you have enough supply in the right places. So we look at it a little bit differently. Um, you, you know, we could have 10, 000 photographers, but then what would that customer experience look like?

[00:19:58] And how do we, you know, make sure that [00:20:00] it's going to be a good fit and that every single customer. is going to love their experience with Flytographer. So, um, it's very intentional, um, in terms of like the process and how we do it. Since we've been doing it for 11 years, we really know kind of, we've learned so much over those 11 years about what are some red flags to watch out for?

[00:20:19] What are some things that will indicate maybe this isn't a match in terms of Um, the photographer and flytographer. Um, but we also have checks and balances and measures. Um, once they [00:20:30] are onboarded, because sometimes it doesn't work, work out after they're onboarded, of course. Right. So we'll, we'll have customer feedback, review loops, and other ways to kind of get, keep a pulse on, is this, you know, is this going to be a good fit for everybody?

[00:20:43] And, um, in some cases there can be some coaching involved and to say like, Hey, um, you know, we need you to be operating up here and like, you know, Um, and you know, everyone has choice, right? So they can see if that's a fit for them to, to, to get there. And if that's not a fit, that's okay too. Um, but we're, we're just, [00:21:00] you know, we have a team that kind of owns recruitment and photographer community and looking at how do we enable success for photographers in terms of like resources we provide for them and clarity around expectation and then what are the tools that we can give them as well.

[00:21:14] So that's, we look at it kind of comprehensively from that perspective, but you won't see us hiring. a ton of photographers just to grow quickly. It's going to still be that. Yes, we have a person interviewing every single person. We have a bunch of steps before that, [00:21:30] that are kind of more automated, but there's always that in person interview to make sure that that person is going to be a good fit.

[00:21:36] Niklas: And have you found that that strategy over time has caused any periods of bottleneck where you've had, you know, not enough photographers supply. You know, suddenly you went viral on Tiktok and, you know, something like this happened and then suddenly you get a big boost and you don't have enough, um, supply, you know, how have you, have you managed to balance [00:22:00] that from a customer experience perspective and like retaining customers?

[00:22:03] Nicole: Yeah. So we track a stat called lost leads, um, really tightly every week. And that's the, like, we have a customer ready with money in hand to book and there is no photographer available. And so we want to keep that stat like under a certain bar every week. So we, we are really on top of kind of managing that.

[00:22:18] And then we also have a lens into. Where lost leads are happening. So if we're like, Oh my gosh, like, you know, Kawaii has like X lost leads this week, like, it looks like this has been trending. We definitely need to be [00:22:30] increasing the supply in that. That destination. And so our recruitment team kind of really looks at that at the metrics a lot to, like, ensure that we have the right amount of supply.

[00:22:40] But, um, you know, because our photographers stay with us for so long, we have photographers that have been with us for 11 years. So a lot of them, once they're on, they're not bopping off and bopping on. The great majority, I would say like 70 percent or more stay with us long term. And so that initial photographer acquisition cost, um, gets [00:23:00] amortized over such a long period of time as well.

[00:23:03] Niklas: That makes sense. That makes sense. So what is that balance today? I mean, you seem, you mentioned liquidity, mentioned the metric, um, uh, of lost leads. Um, it's pretty clear to me that you're first of all metric driven, uh, maybe as a business school background there that caused that as well.

[00:23:22] Um, Uh, do you also, for example, you know, track how many photographers you approximately [00:23:30] need per, per user, per customer, you know, what is that ratio? What is a typical photographer? Yeah. You know, how many, how many photographers do you need to be able to keep them happy?

[00:23:40] Nicole: So it's, it's an interesting question because we have to look at that from a couple different angles.

[00:23:44] We look at, um. By city, first and foremost. So like, if we look at our busiest city, which is Paris, um, we'll look at how many photographers do we need in Paris? Um, you know, and it's also seasonal to some degree as well, of course, but, [00:24:00] um, if you have photographers in Paris, let's say we have, you know, 15 photographers in Paris, then you also have to look at what is the capacity of those 15 photographers, because photographer a might be like, I can take like, you know, four shoots a day and photographer B might be like, I can take two a week.

[00:24:15] So then you kind of have to model out what is their capacity. Um, and then layer in, okay, what is the predicted growth? Because obviously we're tracking every single week, every single day, every single month. And then we look at it year over year. What do we [00:24:30] expect the demand to be in June in Paris based on kind of the data and insight we have?

[00:24:34] So we have a pretty, pretty good lens, um, into the growth and the needs. And so that all these pieces allow us to, you know, project, uh, sort of predict and then plan for, um, any hiring that we need to do in, in, in advance, um, of growth.

[00:24:52] Niklas: That makes sense. And so if you do hire in advance. I would expect you run into the issue that, okay, you hire somebody, but they don't get any work, right?

[00:25:00] You do this in the down season, mid December in Paris, it's cold, it's windy, it's rainy. Nobody's taking romantic pictures, you know, but you're trying to get them all on boarded so that when spring comes along, how do you keep, you know, this is the classic Uber problem, right? How do you keep the supply?

[00:25:18] excited enough and engaged when they're at their highest chance of, of dropping off or losing interest or saying, you know, this, maybe that one's not for me.

[00:25:28] Nicole: Yeah, and that's a really good question. Um, I think there's a couple ways I'd look at that. Number one, um, first and foremost, you need to set expectations.

[00:25:36] You need to be clear. I think being clear is kind and saying, Hey, you know, we're hiring you in December. It's probably, you know, you're probably going to start seeing more bookings in like February. Um, and so being, being clear, I think is so set expectations. So no one's surprised. And secondly, there's no real cost to them to be on the platform other than the effort of like going through the interview, getting their portfolio up.

[00:25:58] Um, and so it's not like they're paying a fee every month or something and not, not getting, um, any bookings. So it's kind of helping them understand, you know, where we're at, where, when we predict the business, you know, we'll. They'll start to see the bookings and also giving them a whole bunch of tools like picks and shovels and things that they can do to grow their shot of getting chosen and books because we know what the you know, the most popular, highly booked photographers, tips and tricks are and trying to share some of that with the other photographers who are keen to take advantage of those opportunities and [00:26:30] learnings.

[00:26:31] Niklas: tax a little bit. You've been doing this for a very long time. You know, what have you learned about what sort of stands out to you of what you learned about what it's like to run a marketplace business, um, or, you know, maybe narrowing it down for your particular industry, you know, as a services.

[00:26:51] Marketplace business, um, or booking marketplace that you've got.

[00:26:57] Nicole: Yeah, it's, um, well, it's complex, right? Because you've got supply and demand, like with any marketplace, and then we've got seasonality, um, and then we've also got, you know, artists and photographers. Uh, so there's a lot of different pieces to kind of figure out and.

[00:27:12] I mean, I've learned a million things in the last decade. Um, I think number one is leaning into two things, being really, really clear on what that customer experience is from like the first time they hit your website through your [00:27:30] transactional emails. Through the in person experience to getting their photos and really investing in every touch point and reducing friction and making it easy.

[00:27:41] First and foremost, I think easy is the key thing. And secondly, just injecting personalization and delight wherever you can. So, um, You know, the more you can do that, then that becomes your flywheel because people not only will come back again, they're also going to refer their friends. And right now that's about 40 [00:28:00] percent of our bookings every month are between repeat customers and people who told their friends or refer a friend.

[00:28:07] So the cost of acquisition is like zero, right? So I think doubling down on creating an extraordinary experience that is number one, easy for your customers. I'll say that again, easy. Cause I, I really think that that is it, you know, people say frictional out, but I think it's just making it easy to do business with you, right.

[00:28:26] At every step and then personalizing it and just making it [00:28:30] great. So that's the sort of first part Part of it. And I'd say the other learnings have been around, how do we set the photographers up for success and really listen to that community? So we have global meetups, we have regular check ins, we have, you know, data that we collect and look at across multiple touch points to really understand like what's working for these photographers, how do we set them up for success?

[00:28:54] We treat them equally like a customer. We want them to feel. Um, we, we want them to know that we care [00:29:00] about them. We care about, um, making sure that they feel, um, appreciated and that they feel supported and they have the tools that they need. It's not this sort of like transactional, um, marketplace where it's just, you know, all business.

[00:29:12] And it's a very, for, for me anyways, like I look at these photographers as. community members. And, um, many of them are my friends now because I've known them for so many years and I've seen them meet, you know, start dating someone and start dating someone else, then get married and then have their first baby and buy their first house.

[00:29:29] [00:29:30] And we've even had romances within the community. And so just knowing like, this is such a people business and making sure that our people, um, feel incredibly valued by flytographer. Um, Makes them show up and give the best experience possible to our customers. So again, it's like this sort of flywheel all around that helps us drive growth, but also feels really good from a founder's perspective.

[00:29:55] Niklas: You know, where do you go? Where do you go from here? Do you have a [00:30:00] A grand vision about where you, you want to do this.

[00:30:05] Nicole: Yeah. Um, so as you probably, you know, are aware, COVID was really disruptive for many travel businesses. And so for us, you know, we had to lay off like 80 percent of the team and go into hibernation mode and pivot, pivot and whatnot.

[00:30:22] And so it was for the last two years, I would say. Rebuilding from like, you know, [00:30:30] sales going to almost zero during COVID to like, okay, how do we, how do we then like rebuild now that travels back, but also looking at from a future growth perspective, what are those, uh, adjacent verticals that make sense for us to move into and start to experiment with where our existing supply.

[00:30:49] Of photographers, um, uh, can get more work and our customers can, um, have more options. And so, uh, event photography and some other like, you know, [00:31:00] hometown photography, some other verticals or areas that we're going to be, um, investing more in, in the future, but. Quite honestly, vacation, we haven't even touched the tip of the iceberg.

[00:31:10] Most people like aren't aware this is a service. So getting the word out and driving a lot of awareness is kind of the goal in the short term. And then also starting to test these new verticals, um, so that it offsets seasonality. And again, we can bring more work to our community.

[00:31:24] Niklas: It's interesting that you, you mentioned COVID, um, you know, maybe let us into your, into your headspace a little bit.

[00:31:33] You're the founder. Yeah. Sounds to me a background. It's heavily, you know, you and bootstrapping the business. Um, and, uh, and, uh, then you walk into something like COVID your business goes zero, you have to cut, you know, fair enough, 80 percent of your team, because what are you going to do, right? Uh, there are bills to pay.

[00:31:56] Um, And uh, you know, first of all, how you motivate yourself through that. And. You know, take such a hard and at the beginning, incredibly, you know, ambiguous time as a founder and, you know, get the, get the, get the motivation to keep fighting through it and make some of these hard decisions, you know, and keep fighting for your business after so many years.

[00:32:25] Nicole: It was, um, it was a really challenging time for sure. Uh, there was so much like uncertainty for everybody, for all of us. We didn't know how long this was going to last and like, um, what the kind of future had, um, had. So you're kind of like boxing in the fog and you're trying to figure out, okay, well, how long can we go?

[00:32:43] And the, you know, of course with travel. You know, the seasonality starts to really pick up in March, which is of course, when COVID hit, and so we were just coming off of low season, moving into high season, and I'll never forget. I think it was March 13th when the borders were just like shut. And you know, we, we typically would have like X number of bookings on that day and we had zero bookings.

[00:33:10] And I remember going, Oh my gosh, like. That's just cause we're, you know, we're bootstrapping at that point. We had raised money earlier, but we hadn't raised for a while. And we were just kind of running, running on profits. And suddenly there were no bookings. And then the next day, no bookings, then the next day, no bookings.

[00:33:24] And so I knew that, uh, the writing was on the wall, had to act swiftly [00:33:30] and make some really tough decisions in order to save the business for the longterm. And so, um, yeah, within, uh, Within two weeks, I had let go 80 percent of the team and just really gone down to who are the key folks to keep the lights on, um, as we ride this out and start to formulate a plan.

[00:33:47] And so I kept a couple of developers and an operations person and it, um, it was really, uh, an interesting time. And so we experimented with a lot of things, you know, we tried it e commerce, travel, merch shop, and, um, [00:34:00] some courses, digital courses and hometown shoots. But, um, well, I think. The most powerful thing that we did was we really looked at that again, that customer journey.

[00:34:11] And we looked at our, our booking platform. And we took that opportunity to really make some changes that we were kind of too busy to do before. So the, the, I I'd say the summary of COVID for me was, it was very hard and whenever you have to let your team go, that's like the literally the worst thing a founder can go through.

[00:34:32] Um, and. We were able to, as a company, I think emerge much stronger, both in terms of the tech platform. Um, but also allowed to kind of, as we rebuilt the company and had to reimagine what the role, you know, the rules and the positions would be for this next stage of growth. I had, um, at that point, you know, like seven years of experience running a startup.

[00:34:56] So I had the sort of, Or, you know, that, that perspective to be able to [00:35:00] think about, okay, when we reimagine it, what is it going to look like? And so today we're doing more than double the sales we did in COVID before COVID and we're profitable, but we're using the same amount of people. So we're, you know, still around the same head count.

[00:35:13] And, uh, just this year, I hired, uh, a chief operating officer, uh, in January. Yeah, that is honestly, I cannot tell you how, how exciting that, that, that hire was. And, um, Paulina is [00:35:30] amazing. Um, and last week we hired our first director of growth marketing Janice. And so, um, We have kind of these three key leadership positions in marketing and dev and then the COO as you know, and so it's a really exciting time for me as a founder because I have these people that bring great experience to the table that are going to allow us to kind of unlock this next chapter of growth.

[00:35:54] Niklas: So you're finally going to have enough time to use your own service. [00:36:00] Yeah. Paris, get some photos taken, you probably haven't done that in, in, in a decade.

[00:36:06] Nicole: Well, no, you know what, I, um, I went to New York with my son who's 17 over spring break and we did a shoot in Central Park and it was so much fun.

[00:36:17] Niklas: That is fun. Uh, it wasn't, it wasn't totally crawling with people.

[00:36:22] Nicole: Well, Carrie took us to these little like pockets that were not too busy. So yeah, we got some really cool shots. Great photos. But the main mission there was to go see the Knicks play basketball. So we accomplished that as well. 

Niklas:Yeah. But you've got exactly the experience, right?

[00:36:35] Local guide finds the local spots. That's, yeah, absolutely. And, uh, maybe, you know, switching tracks, you mentioned your, your, your CTO or the person who runs your development. Um, and, uh, and that'd be a key leadership. You mentioned keeping some developers during COVID, um, from my understanding, you don't come from a technical background.

[00:36:59] Um, And so, you know, what did that look like for you when you started out? You know, how, how did you build all this tech? You know, how do you continue to build all this tech? What does what does that stack look like?

[00:37:14] Nicole: Yeah, I mean, there was no turnkey marketplace software back then, which would have been really convenient.

[00:37:18] Um, so in that in the beginning, um, quite honestly, there wasn't a lot of tech. And, um, as you know, you hear the expression do things that don't scale. That's pretty much what we did. So it was a matter of having a website. You know, uh, email spreadsheets, like in the early days, it was very, like the first, the first six months, it was very rudimentary and then started to bring in like a, an off the shelf CRM system, but we didn't actually build a booking platform until 2017.

[00:37:53] So the first three years was just like kind of hobbling together, uh, a CRM system with some like, Some web hooks and, you know, it was like pretty, pretty, uh, pretty, we had a one little piece of code that I hired a developer to allow photographers to upload photos too, but I mean, for the first six months, it was just using like.

[00:38:15] Kind of Google drive type things to send photos out. So it started off really raw and really like when I look back and I look at some of the, like the graphics I designed and it's just awful. It's so bad, but, um, it does remind you of like [00:38:30] what it takes to kind of get it off the ground. And I didn't have any funding.

It was just me. And so I think it's okay, right? It's okay to put it out there and just see what happens. And I think you just want to always be in learning mode and listening to your customers and listening to your photographers and know that, you know, it's going to evolve over time. But, um, you know, that was kind of the tech platform now.

[00:38:50] And then today we have, you know, a custom, uh, platform that we have a team of developers and, um, yeah, it's a, it's a, uh, 

[00:39:00] Niklas: What would you tell the world about, about, um, flytographer and, you know, what's the, what's the sort of the elevator pitch for why somebody should use it? Why should somebody should get involved?

[00:39:15] And  you know, what's the takeaway somebody should have from, from, from listening to you today?

[00:39:24] Nicole: I think that on the customer side, I think that when we look back and what we treasure most in life, it's often photographs with the people we love and experiences and memories with the people that matter.

[00:39:36] Um, and so if you're on a trip and it's a special occasion or it's a special place, um, by booking flytographer, you're not only going to get. Beautiful photos that are wall worthy that you're going to want to like, you know, here, I've got one right here, you know, something like you're going to want to put this on your wall because it's just so it's just so spectacular.

[00:39:56] And it's going to take you right back to that moment [00:40:00] when you were on that trip versus some sort of blurry selfie. Um, so from the photography side, you're using a professional, you're going to get something that's just Beautiful. art, you're going to put it on your wall and it's going to tell the stories of your life.

[00:40:13] On the photographer side, um, you can just like talk to people in our community. They love working with us, um, because we care and they know we care and that we, you know, it's one of our core values is caring. And, uh, the fact that, People have been with our platform [00:40:30] for so many years and it helps them supplement their, their rent or their mortgage payments.

[00:40:34] And it's just a great way to, to make money, meet fascinating customers from all over the world. Um, and be part of this global community of really cool artists. Um, it's just, yeah, that would, that's what I would say.

[00:40:49] Niklas: Well, it was really nice to have you on the podcast. Yeah. Obviously delighted for you that you managed to get through probably the darkest time that you can have as a business and come out, you know, With double the bookings and growth and an [00:41:00] improved product.

[00:41:00] I think that's a super impressive story. Um, so I really appreciate your time. Thank you very much. Thank you so much. It was really fun. Thanks for tuning in to Operation Marketplace. This show was brought to you by Nautical Commerce, the end to end marketplace platform. If you have any questions about optimizing or starting a marketplace, hit the link in the description.

We hope you enjoyed the show. See you next time.

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